Quantcast
Home | Back

Where's the Frugal Part

Email To A Friend
Printer Friendly
Comments
Add to Reddit Add to Digg Add to del.icio.us

This is going to be a long one folks and I expect the normal rhetoric telling me so will follow in the posts. I've read a lot of longer ones browsing the web. Some over 300 pages. So, if you don't want to read it I suggest you stop here.

On the other hand, if you have nothing better to do, if you want food for thought or just want to read some science or mathamatical fiction dabbled with a little bit of truth, then proceed.

However, this opinion post is not absolute in any way shape or form. It is nothing more than a hypothetical, speculative possiblity of maybe a million others that it could be. This one takes it to a basic possiblity and figures and postulation from there. It is not true or meant to be true in any way shape or form. However the numbers do bring forth and enlighten us to a suprising observation that may just raise an eyebrow.

These figures came directly to me from the current Treasurer of the Streetboro City School District which you can query him of these figures at your leisure.

This is the pay for Substitute Teachers for days while they are employed and working for our district. It does not specifiy whether these are days consecutive or cumulative. It is how it was reported to me and if you need to know that, please contact the Tresurer of the school district.

1 to 15 days receives $84.74 a day

16 to 30 days reveives $94.90 a day

31 to 45 days receives $105.08 a day

46 days or more receives $115.24 a day

Is the frugal part the fact that we pay $5.00 a day less than other districts that pay $120.00?

Total for 15 days service $1271

Total for 15-30 days service $1423

Total for 30-45 Days of Service $1576

Daily wage for Subs from 46 60 days (15 day period) $1728

In thirty days the substitute has made 2694.00

In forty five days the substitute has made $4170.00

From 46 days to 183 the total is $15,903.00

Total for the 9 months (183 days), of work $20,073.00. For 9 months work this comes to $2230.00 a month on average.

Now for the hypothesis or speculation or what ever you may want to refer it to:

If I wanted to play around with these figures then I would take the total cost for a single substitute teacher ($20,073.00) and divide it into $518,000 (the total our district paid for substitue teachers last year), and I get 25.8 teachers that were absent.

Imagine, enough money was paid out to equal replacing 25.8 of our Teaching Staff for a full 183 days for each one!

If it does anything at all, it boggles my mind. Many variables would have to come into perfect alignment for this to work for my hypothesis. Again folks, this is just speculation.

So, if there are exactly 25.8 teachers that did miss all 183 days of school this year, the numbers would work. However, the odds of that happening are probably greater than hitting the six digit lottery. It would be interesting to get the exact numbers and the total breakdowns that accumulated a sum of $518,000.00 in substitute pay! Wouldn't that be AWESOME?

It probably would open a lot of homes. Could you imagine the coronary's people would be having?

Continiuing on, that means some subs didn't replace just one particular teacher for any length of time. They probably substituted for a variety of teachers and or positions. Meaning there is no way this sub could work in the absence of just one teacher (highly unlikely).

There were more teachers they replaced than just that one. The variables at this point could be just about anything you would want them to be and the fact remains that there will be a great many more than just 25 teachers who had a sub.

My guess, and this is ONLY a guess but I think the number would be up around 110 a year at some time or another had a replacement come in or maybe every teacher in the district. It would be interesting to know how many teachers had perfect attendance last year. Subtract that number and you will get the real number of how many teachers missed a day, or two, or several or many each year.

The question is "Why did the sub replace the teacher in the first place", "Did we have that many teachers who were sick or on FMLA?"
Even if just 25 teachers did miss every day of the school year, that would be way too many teachers for a whole school year (I have missed about 8 in the last 30 years).

How can our children receive a quality education if that many days had substitute teachers who may or may not know the subjects they are teaching? How do they teach those courses they are not familiar with?

If 110 teachers missed that is costing on the average $4733.00 for each teacher ($518,000 divided by 110).

If the median Teachers wage is $1073.00 a week (assuming the median wage approx $56,000 / 52 weeks a year), then the Teacher has cost the their students 4.41 weeks of professional instruction and had added an additional cost to the district by having the pay the wage of the substitute. Teachers can take personal days, sick days and/or possibly a vacation day to keep from not getting paid on the days they were absent which in turn still costs the district money.

If I took the highest wage that we would pay a substitute teacher, I would arrive at a conservative number that shows how may days were missed by teachers during the entire school year. That number is 4,494 days out of the school year. There's only 183 days in a school year. Can some one tell me if I messed up on that one, it seems like quite an awful lot of days($518,000.00 divided by daily wage for a substitute teacher of $115.24 a day). Of course this is a guesstimate and is probably a conservative number (Of course there is the possiblity that the district hires so many substitutes is that they are trying to be frugal with our money by insuring that if we have enough substitues very few if any would ever achieve more than 45 days whether they were accumulative or consecutive, there is that possibility of course, that didn't come out as being sarcastic did it?)

The basic observations that I see from the above hypthosis is disturbing to me. Think what you will or can postulate on your own ideas or figures but any way you hash it the ideas and possiblities that come up are most likely going to be worse than what I came up with.

The daily wages for substitutes is an accurate number(s). The Median wage for teachers in Streetsboro is close to within $1000.00 yearly plus or minus ($56,000.00) a year.

I have derived at a speculation here which one could assume that on average the student loses 4.41 weeks of professional instruction from their assigned instructor per year (some more some less, think about that one).

A fact, the total cost to the district for Substitute teachers for 2008-2009 was $518,000.00

Speculation, the teachers days missed could probably be a paid day off for a variety of reasons.

Even if the teacher wasn't paid it still cost us for the Substitute the day the teacher was absent.

4.41 weeks is equivalent to more than a whole month off in a school year.

Of course, the 4.41 weeks is an assumption, a speculation, a whim, or whatever you want to call it, however it is still probable.

I'm sorry but I don't see this as frugal spending in the district. It appears to be more of an abuse. How could we have spent so much and how much education was missed if the cost for substitute teachers was so high?

We are told the levy is for the children to receive a quality education and the materials they need.

The funding provided for substitute teachers could have been the extra funds we could have used for books, transportation, aides, and many of the other items they are eliminating if the levy fails.

It won't pay for all but it could be a good start.

What I know so far is they spent $1.4 million over the forecasted revenues for 2008-2009 and the cost of the substitute teachers was $518,000.00 of that number. The students still have outdated books, K-8 school children are still paying fees, and as far as I know the course fees were not reduced in the high school (the latter two they assured us would occur if the 2007 levy passed), and a quality education by the teacher who was hired by the district to perform the task is not alway there.

The increase in property tax if the levy passes is the same as a wage cut to the property owners and renters. Workers are already taking a reduction in wages, reduction in hours, layed off or just let go. Costs have gone up for many items to include insurance and the workers increasing co-pay contribution.

Teachers are protected by their union and Administrators by their contract, but they can collectively work towards assisting their district by freezing their wages or even taking a possible cut in pay. They can assure us their days of being absent will be greatly reduced.

Now how will they really spend the addition $4,011,000 dollars the levy will generate a year?

And where's the frugal part.

You all know, that usually I am not frugal with words. I admint it.

This was for your reading pleasure.

Martin Fleming






Comments
By Posting to this site, you agree to our Terms of Service Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed. Recordpub.com doesn't necessarily condone the comments here, nor does it review every post.

Login above or Register to comment.
Jump to Page: 1 2 3 ... 11
   Next 10 Comments of 106 Total Comments
106.
    Posted by whizzard1 November 17, 2009
Teachmom,

You are so far off and uniformed that I laughed all the way through your posts.

You haven't comprehended anything at all that I have posted.

Yes I have taught children, adults and even seniors.

Yes I do know what it is like to teach all day.

You may have worked with students from the lower grades who were home schooled but they are only a few and not a great example of the entire cross section that is out there.

If the computers will be outdate so quickly, why is it that the school districts have computers now that are over 8 years old. Get real lady.

You know what, I am not even going to respond to anything more that you wrote and will totally ignore someone who is so ignorant that it is almost unbelieveable.

I hope you're not in any school district now and I hope you are not in Streetsboro. You are nothing more than a disgrace to the teachers who really know what I am talking about. You are most likey too old to be teaching now. You are one of the ones that needs to get out of teaching and there is no doubt about that.

You have no clue as to what I have been talking about.


Martin Fleming

105.
    Posted by MyGirl42187 November 4, 2009
Kind like when a levy loses because the people are sick of the waste. You know, like the one in Streetsboro

104.
    Posted by teachmom November 4, 2009
MyGirl
You are quite a sad, pitiful, unhappy person.
The usual comeback of those who really have nothing important to say.
It is what it is.

103.
    Posted by MyGirl42187 November 3, 2009
Blah, blah, blah,

Poor me, I chose to be a teacher and now I am mad. Blah, blah, blah, There are stressful parts of my job, Blah, blah, blah, I have to actually do my teacher job blah, blah blah, I didnt know what I was getting into blah, blah, blah, It's the taxpayers fault, Blah, blah, blah, I have too many students, blah, blah, blah,.

If you loved your job so much, quit bit@#ing about it so much. Here is a "lesson": the taxpayers are sick of the poor me entitlement crap. your posts teah me nothing more than what I already know.

102.
    Posted by teachmom November 3, 2009
I knew it! I just knew I wouldn't be able to get through very many posts before I had to write again.

I am going to copy and paste comments from previous posts and then respond.

Martin says:
"We could eliminate play ground monitors and lunch room monitors and have either the administrative staff or teaching staff fill those rolls."
How exactly does this make sense? What, Martin, we are not entitled, as teachers, to eat lunch? Were you able to eat lunch where you worked? Oh, and what about those students who need extra help? Guess when I, and most of my colleagues, are helping our students? That's right during our lunch and their recess time. Also, as a reward for my students, they can eat lunch with me in our room. It's a special privilege for them to eat with the teacher. And for me it is such a cool way to talk with a small group of kids and really learn about them. I guess if you had it your way, I'd have kids who wouldn't get the extra help or the privileges.

Martin: "Narrow mentality will keep our children learning the way the do now. We need leaders with vision and leaders who are tech savvy and know the computers are our best bet for lowering education costs across this nation".
What in the world do the "leaders" have to do with it? I have my Master's in Technology. I use the most-up-to-date technology in my classroom and that is ONLY because I wrote grants for what I have. My district is NOT wealthy.
Who exactly would be teaching this tech savvy stuff to the kids? The leaders? Are you for real??? The teachers would and how would they do that if they don't have the proper education to use that technology equipment? How are they going to get that education? Oh, wait, they have to do it on their summers "off". And that's if the college or university or tech school offers those classes in the summer. Our "leaders", federal and state level, are why we are in the mess we are now!

Martin: "Our problem is grouping all the students in one class to be taught. Children are individuals and need to be taught as individuals."
Now you are contradicting yourself. You want teachers to retire at 30 years of service. Ok, reality is once a teacher retires, districts don't replace them. They just start stacking up students into classrooms until we are sitting at 30-35 in class. How exactly would you want them taught as individuals? Oh, wait, the whole technology thing. Oh, sure. In case your small brain couldn't hold it long enough, scroll back up and read my previous comment above.

Martin: "Hiring more teachers and tutors will not as has not been the answer."
What is, oh wise one? (Please be aware that I am being extremely sarcastic).

Martin: "Getting in line with the world as it is today with technology would give you the opportunity to get that individual training to each and every student. Every student assigned a netbook or notebook would have their very own personal tutor. Every student would then be able to progress at their own pace and achieve remarkable things.

In the interim, the cost to educate would drop 30 to 50 percent of what we are paying now."

I have students who have been "home-schooled" strictly using a computer. They know nothing!! And why do they eventually get enrolled into the public school system somewhere around the 2nd or 3rd grade?
Oh and your solution of a netbook or computer for each and every child? Let's say we went that. Who exactly is going to keep that equipment in tip-top shape so it continues to work? Who is going to install all of the new software so they can do their work? Since you are against lunchroom and playground monitors; I can only guess that you are also against the people who work in the tech departments of schools. How exactly are the antiquated buildings in most districts going to be able to sustain all of that technology equipment? I'm talking servers, cables, T1 lines, fiber optic cables, etc. Yes, Martin, I do know about all that. I'm educated, remember??? And I thank a TEACHER for that.
Where exactly would you get the money for all of this expensive equipment? Perhaps a levy? Or wait, perhaps, all the good-hearted people like you and "MyGirl" who you so obviously adore will reach into your pockets and donate all of the funds. And if you are any kind of intelligent person, you will realize that giving a netbook computer to children (K, 1, 2, 3, 4th grades, for example) will be cause for concern. They will get dropped and broken. And you do realize that computers for sale today at Best Buy will be obsolete by next year as compared to what will be available then. How long will you keep the netbooks? How often will you update with new ones? Have you THOUGHT about any of this?????

MyGirl: "Teachers now teach to a ciriculum designed to get students to pass those brainless apptitude tests so the districts can get better state ratings. Its a real shell game to make the administration look good to the voters. That way they can continuiously fleece us for new taxes."

Who in world do you think came up with the concept of those tests? Teachers??? Think again, Girl! We don't want them. We know we can do better without the tests. We know that gauging students on what they can do day in and day out is so much more accurate that one day out of their lives each year! If you want to complain about the tests; then go to the right forum: Governor Strickland, State Superintendent Debra Delisle, your local legislators.

Martin: "Yes, teachers should get out of the business after 30 years. They will get 95% of their pay and don't have to waste 10% on fuel, lunches, and other things that cost when you work. They're and the district is better off if they called it quites at 30. Sorry but that is the way it is."
Sorry Martin. Do the homework. Teachers will only get 88% of their retirement and that's after 35 years of service--not 30. Where did you come up with 95%?? And if most teachers start teaching at 22 or 23, they can retire at 52 or 53. What, they can't have another job? What then?

Martin: "Hey after 30 years, the teacher retires, moves to another state and start all over again. I don't see the problem."
Why is this a solution for you? Move to another state? Why?
Oh, wait, then we don't have to bother with those crappy teachers anymore, right? Is that your thought? Martin, maybe it's time for you to move to another state. Or, maybe you could find a small, deserted island out in the middle of the Pacific and you and your admiration society could move there and you can spend your whole time complaining about the education system and teachers in general.

I'm done with this tonight.
Teachmom

101.
    Posted by teachmom November 3, 2009
I happened onto this "discussion" quite by accident. I am a teacher. I do not teach in the Streetsboro district; nor do I teach in Portage County. I do teach in Ohio.

I am by no means through reading all 100 of these posts. In fact, I'm only on #19. I will finish reading all of them; but I felt the NEED to post some comments right now. I apologize in advance if I tend to jump around with my thoughts as I am FIRED up regarding the comments I've read so far.

1. First, Mr. Fleming, what is/was your chosen profession?
2. Do you have children?
3. Have you spent time (a day, a week) in a classroom? Actually spent time working with children for the time students are there?
4. Have you "walked in the shoes" of a teacher? Their day? Their year?

I have walked in the shoes of other occupations. I came to the field of education later in life. I was 34 when I graduated with my education degree in Elementary Education 1-8 with a specialization in Reading. I graduated in Dec. 1999. I spent the rest of that 99/00 school year subbing. It is one job I would never care to have again. In the 2000/2001 school year, I was one of those tutors (Title 1) that was mentioned in a previous post. Before that I worked as a legal secretary (after high school) and then held various secretarial positions in another company as I moved up to different departments.
My husband and I were also business owners for a time after our children arrived and I did not want to work out of the home. I must mention that at this time my husband held down a full-time job as a carpenter and our business was a part-time, after work, business. Growing up, I also worked on a farm mucking out stalls, driving a tractor in the fields, etc. So please do NOT accuse me of not knowing what it is like to not know another person's perspective and NOT walking in another person's shoes. I also volunteer my time (after my contracted day--which I will return to later), at a local hospital as a handler with my dog in a pet therapy program. I am also a certified Canine Good Citizen Evaluator with the AKC. So, I do have experience with many different "jobs" paid and unpaid. If your next comment was going to be I haven't walked in enough shoes of other peoples jobs; I'm sure you haven't either.

Regarding the issue of you only taking off a very limited number of days; here's your pat on the back. IF you have children, I am assuming you are married, who was the majority care-taker of those children when they were sick? You or your wife? The majority of teachers are female; especially at the elementary level. Guess who must take off to take care of those children??

Yes, I chose this profession. I chose it because I love children and I love helping them become lifelong learners who are able to have an open mind about all topics. I teach third grade now. As mentioned above, I was a sub and I was a tutor. I then became a 1st grade teacher with my own classroom. After that, I taught a 2/3 combination class with varying levels of ability. I then taught four years of second grade and am presently in my third year of third grade--which is where I've always wanted to be. I have a classroom of 28 students; but when I teach math, since I am the inclusion classroom, my numbers jump to 32 with support from the Model IV (Special Education) teacher present. It's overwhelming at times; but I love seeing them learn and explore.
Yes, I chose this profession. No, I'm not whining (this to the "girl" who wrote her response saying teachers should stop whining). I'm so happy for you that you are in charge of 200 people. If I'm reading you right; you're basically saying those 200 people sometimes act like children.
"I manage 200 people directly or indirectly and they are adults from every socio-econonic and cultural demographic. They have every problem those kids have and more mulitplied by 10."
That's just wonderful!!! Just what I want to hear about adults who out in the world making decisions that may affect me. If I were you, I'd be asking why they still act like children!! Could it be the leadership in your company? Hmmmmm... My hope is that I am doing whatever I can to educate my students to become productive, well-educated citizens so that we don't have people like you saying things like that in the future.

When I hear the comment, "teachers chose that profession", I think, "Yes, I did!" Did I go into it for the money? Absolutely not! My son, a senior mechanical engineering student, will make more than me right out of college next May than I do now. That's o.k. He's worked for it. However, what some narrow-minded people (and yes, I'm talking about some people on this forum--and others)don't seem to realize is I've worked hard too. I went back to college in 2005 to obtain my Master's Degree in Instructional Technology. By the way, this is a requirement by the State of Ohio. Teachers must obtain a Master's in order to renew their license. I graduated with my Master's in 2007. That Master's has helped me become a better teacher to my third graders and to other teachers. In my spare time, I conduct professional development classes in the technologies that children will have to use in their future work-world. I do this on MY OWN TIME and it is VOLUNTARY. Understand this, Mr. Fleming, I do NOT get paid for this. I do it AFTER school hours often until 6:30 at night AND during the summer.
Gee, imagine what I could do if I had the time that Mr. Fleming seems to have. So, do I deserve the amount I am paid? You bet!! And, in order for me to renew my 5 year license again in 2013, I have to take another 6 credit hours and pay a $200 fee. Am I whining? No, I'm stating facts.

Back to the contracted day I said I would talk about later. My contracted day is from 8:00-3:30. My actual day? 7:00-4:30 (sometimes 5:30). Yes, I get to work an hour before I'm contractually obligated to and I often leave 1-2 hours later than my contract says. Is my work day really over then? No. Mr. Fleming, I then come home, make dinner, clean up, do some exercise and then it's an hour or hour and a half of grading papers or planning fun, hands-on, exciting lessons to keep my students engaged.
Somewhere in there I find time to work with my dogs, visit with my boys (both well-educated, non-narrow-minded adults age 22 and 19), and spend time with my husband. Am I whining? No, just stating facts.

Oh and "Kent-Rite" whoever you are: I'm not sure if you're being facetious or playing devil's advocate; but when those 3 students come back from being absent? I have to take more time away from those 20 students and spend extra time catching them up and reteaching my lesson. So, if I got 87% on the day they were absent, do I get over 100% when they come back and I have to reteach the lesson over again and work them through their written assignments that they missed?


So, Mr. Fleming, I don't hold out much hope of you responding positively to this message or responding at all. There seems to be a pattern for you in your responses.

I'm going to keep reading the rest of the posts. I'm checking my blood pressure as I go and as it goes up I'm sure I'll be writing more posts.

Teachmom

100.
    Posted by whizzard1 October 29, 2009
Knowledgeispower,

I also want to thankyou for clearing it up about the teachers asking for more money. I never said that and I personally haven't heard anything about them doing that.

Seriously,

No harm done on being harsh. Being under the weather can make people be mean and harsh when they really aren't that way at all. Forgiven.

And Yes, as far as attendance goes in Streetsboro for Students, it is highly, highly commendable. I am telling myself it is because the children want to go and have a deep desire to learn. At least that is what I'm telling myself.

I know others will come up with an alternative excuse, but when you really come down to it, I think it is because the students want to be there.

I know my grandaughters and grandson really hate to miss. Probably because I still make them study when they do miss. Going to school is much easier on them.

Martin Fleming

99.
    Posted by whizzard1 October 29, 2009
Knowledgeispower,

Good point, I honestly didn't consider that aspect. Glad you brought that up.

On another note, I requested a report showing the salaries and benefits for the Adminstration in Streetsboro School district this past Sunday. Even left the Treasurer a voice mail. Hasn't returned my call and has yet to send me the report.

Do you think he doesn't want to give me that information before the election?

Martin Fleming

98.
    Posted by knowledgeispower October 27, 2009
Martin -

I never saw you post anything about teachers asking for more money, but someone did and I wanted to make sure it was noted in this post that they haven't as of yet.

As far as the median income changing by that much (a little more than a 5% annual increase) from 2006 to 2009, I can only speculate. The wage scale itself hasn't changed by that amount (that is to say, the same experience and degree level), but the makeup of staff may have changed dramatically which could have an impact on the median wage level.

97.
    Posted by SERIOUSLY October 27, 2009
I agree, Martin, that is good info she posted.

It is interesting to see that other districts can achieve an excellent rating with slightly more or even less money. Bravo to them for achieving these ratings!

I told you guys I was sick and probably a bit cranky last week, sorry if I was harsh.

I see both of your points that educational pedegogy could evolve to make things better for the kids. I am not saying that things are perfect or that the old status quo is the way to go. I definitely think computers and technology have their places in the modern classroom. I think I mentioned that I was certified years ago, it was in Technology education K-12. Martin, I absolutely understand what you are trying to get across about change being good, however, it is my opinion, I repeat just MY opinion, that this change will not be as quickly implemented as any of you would like to see. Nor will it be implemented to the extent which I think you want it to be. This does not mean you are wrong, nor does it mean I am right, it is simply my observation from being around schools for 20 years.

This entire discussion took a very heated and sour note because of the way it started. Remember, this began as an evaluation of the teachers' use of sick time, and what several of us perceived as an attack upon teachers' absence habits by you. It has now evolved in another direction, talking about this levy campaign.

Do they need this large of a levy? I doubt it. Should it have been ran as a continuing levy? No.
I know that it is tiresome when someone makes projection mistakes and then comes to the taxpayers asking for the money to fix the deficits. Was anyone fired for these huge miscalculations?

I guess the root of the problem is that when they screw up like this, there is nowhere else to turn but the voters. Can they make enough cuts internally to offset the need for more money? I don't know-it is more difficult than one thinks. They must maintain minimum course offerings at the high school level, but there are things that can be cut like art, music, and phys. ed. from K-6th grades. Anyone who is certified in elementary ed is able to incorporate all those things into their regular classroom curriculum, so it is not necessary to employ separate teachers for those classes.

I will continue to disagree with you on the use of monitors for lunch, recess, and study halls. As I said, I worked in a district under state commission control, and they chose to keep it that way saying that was the best use of funds and teachers' time was more valuable in the classroom.

On a final note, I do not put much faith in the state ratings, as linked to the dollars levied. I doubt that you believe in these state mandated tests either, do you? The whole trick to looking good is how well you have twisted your curriculum as a district to teach to the state standards. Obviously, if you only concentrate on teaching the skills needed to pass the specific parts of those achievement tests, then you will score well as a district. The attendance is a bit harder to control, but from what I saw somewhere that does not seem to be a problem in S'boro, correct?

I can see how this levy seems excessive, and that by voting no it will put more pressure on the board and superintendent. The unfortunate side effect is that they will cut busing, programs, and other things that will negatively affect the kids and parents who may have to drive kids to school or write checks for pay to play fees.

It all seems pretty evil, because then voters will say the board is doing this to punish them for not passing the levy, and the cycle continues. Maybe a smaller, emergency levy would be more palatable to those who are concerned. Or Not-!?

Thanks for reading.

   Next 10 Comments |